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Crunchified 16 hours ago [-]
If someone says Google can't be trusted for purchases of long-term, capital-style goods like a thermostat (or smoke detectors), I'd have to agree.
The Nest I bought way back when may still be installed in the home I sold 10+ years ago.
But I didn't buy it from Google, I bought it from Nest (pre-Google) - a company that designed and sold high-tech gear that was designed to be permanently installed and (presumably) last a good long time. The acquisition was not a good match, but it is what it is - lesson learned and reputations lost.
(and the design, honestly, was more down Apple's lane than Google's - I thought the former would be more likely to buy them out, not that it guaranteed any different results).
soraminazuki 16 hours ago [-]
> lesson learned and reputations lost
I think that's an overly optimistic take, because we've been through this over and over, and it's only getting worse. We collectively are clearly not getting the message, and we don't own anything as a result.
tancop 6 hours ago [-]
Consumer boycotts never work. The only way to fix this is regulation and/or Claude assisted hacking.
soraminazuki 4 hours ago [-]
Actually, I agree. I wasn't talking about consumer boycotts in particular. With the current concentration of money and power, consumer choice has less influence on corporations with each passing day. This is made abundantly clear with the current wipeout of the personal computing market to make way for AI data centers.
So I believe that the lesson we should learn here is the importance of public pressure and proper regulations that rein in bad actors.
I have one objection, though. It's a mistake to think that Anthropic is on the consumer's side. That's the same mistake we've made over and over.
pluralmonad 5 hours ago [-]
My boycott has worked flawlessly.
colechristensen 15 hours ago [-]
one if the problems being the freedoms companies can be bought for the purposes of being destroyed
14 hours ago [-]
14 hours ago [-]
izend 16 hours ago [-]
What a coincidence, I am working on deploying the https://nolongerevil.com/ on my 2nd Gen Nest Thermostat, my wife has bugging me for weeks to either fix it or buy a new one.
I am actually going to self-host and vibe code my own cloud service on Cloudflare.
deadmutex 15 hours ago [-]
nice, how do you plan to secure it?
izend 56 minutes ago [-]
Could do something like oauth to gmail + OTP (or passkeys) on cloudflare workers with long lived sessions or I could vibe code an iOS app even and side load it. That would be very secure as well. I haven't decided yet.
I have a personal password manager secured like that I vibe coded to replace 1password and so far it is working great.
29083011397778 9 hours ago [-]
Why bother? Block WAN access at the router, put the entire thing behind a VPN (Tailscale or Wireguard, dealers choice), and move on. If you really care, put everything you vibe code or consider security-abandonware on its own VLAN.
Keep it off the WAN and you'll be streets ahead of commercial vendors, and your weird, one-off, vibe-coded app means those same commercial vendors are the easier, more widely-deployed targets anyways.
tonymet 16 hours ago [-]
how do you flash? do you need uart ?
forsalebypwner 16 hours ago [-]
You just need a microUSB cable IIRC
regnull 16 hours ago [-]
Nest is a disaster. Same with their fire alarms. I spent a small fortune buying those, just to rip them out and dump into garbage. Google hardware - never again.
swed420 4 hours ago [-]
> Nest is a disaster
It truly is, and it's a shame since the hardware build quality was solid.
My gen 3 had a bug where when selecting heat mode from off mode after previously being in cooling mode, it'd pulse the AC briefly before ultimately engaging heat, which is absolutely not what you want to do when it's below safe operating temp for the AC compressor.
It was a really basic thing that would have been quickly patched if owned by a thermostat company, but clearly asking too much when owned by an advertising company.
Never again.
michaelmcdonald 16 hours ago [-]
Did you move to a different “smart” smoke detector? Just go with an old school “dumb” one?
idunno246 14 hours ago [-]
not the parent, but when my nest protects died i switched to dumb ones. all co2 detectors expire after ten years, nest decided the appropriate action is to just brick it when they were ten years old. the only feature i really used was using the app to silence it when cooking got smoky. but theres very few options for smart ones, lack of interconnect compatibility got frustrating if i wanted to mix smart and dumb, and it would have easily cost twice as much(i have 6 detectors).
ive considered connecting the interconnect wire to my esp32 (that replaced the security system) and get it pushed into home assistant, but without the ability to silence, a push notification that it is going off just didnt seem worth it
tonymet 16 hours ago [-]
100% agree. i had a thermostat and 4 cameras. abysmal software, and the hardware started dying . The thermostat died after 3 years, due to faulty "smart" HVAC circuitry . The doorbell camera (with built in lithium battery, ) died after 5 years.
> $1200 in hardware, practically worthless.
SoftTalker 16 hours ago [-]
Meanwhile my mercury-bulb thermostat from the 1960s still works perfectly.
deadmutex 14 hours ago [-]
They might've not regressed, but those things were bad UX.
Those things are really hard to control, and no scheduling, no remote control, no sensors, etc.
SoftTalker 14 hours ago [-]
They are simple to contol, turn a dial to the temperature you want. Remote control and sensors are just things Google has convinced you to think you need so you'll buy their fancy thermostat (that is now e-waste).
deadmutex 10 hours ago [-]
That gives you a false sense of precision. I had a bad experience with an old one. 100% would not buy the old mercury tech over anything else "smart" or not available today
tonymet 16 hours ago [-]
i marvel at simple mechanical-electric solutions . e.g. toasters, simple coffee pots, thermostats. 100+ year duty cycles. amazing elegance and resilience
rr808 15 hours ago [-]
My wife bugs me to replace physical light switches with smart one. Sorry I'm too busy for that one lol.
btreecat 3 hours ago [-]
I got rid of mine, possibly hastily.
Have since replaced it with a Z wave Honeywell thermostat, and I'm much happier.
Not only did I kill the wifi & Internet dependency, but the UX is much closer to a traditional thermostat. So other folks don't seem to have an issue with it as much.
And it actually supports my hardware thermometer for dual fuel cutover.
folkrav 16 hours ago [-]
On one hand, I obviously can’t legitimately expect the manufacturers of these things to support their older hardware offerings ad vitam aeternam.
On the other, it’s a freaking thermostat controller. An appliance. I don’t want to have to replace appliances before they break, and software breaking it is unacceptable.
I’ve been largely holding off on domotics because so much of it reeks of premature obsolescence... Maybe someone over here has good experience with Home Assistant et al?
vrighter 46 minutes ago [-]
why not? a couple of raspberry pis could probably serve all of them
roughly 15 hours ago [-]
You could expect them to support the product for the lifespan of the product, though.
jochem9 8 hours ago [-]
I've recently set up Home Assistant again after a 5 year hiatus. All my old devices still work fine.
I primarily use zigbee, which is fully local and very reliable. Home Assistant supports a lot, including older hardware. I have a 2010 Philips LivingColors lamp (predecessor of the Hue) that talks early zigbee and still connects to a 2026 zigbee dongle + Home Assistant install.
I avoid any cloud dependency for the reason you give. Anything local, especially with open protocols and an active community, will probably work for a very long time. Likely the lifetime of the appliance.
joshfee 16 hours ago [-]
I've been using NodeRED + zigbee2mqtt/zwavejs for my locally controlled home automation to great effect. I expose all my devices to Google Home as a convenient frontend, but all the actual devices are mine and locally controlled so I can replace Google at any point. I tried home assistant years ago, but aside from the wealth of plugins I didn't find its approach particularly convincing. I have on occasion used it simply as a bridge between node red and HA plugins before though which is nice for niche devices or integrations
paxy 14 hours ago [-]
It still works as a thermostat.
bagacrap 14 hours ago [-]
Also I assume it still can be controlled from your phone? Only the "learning" features are gone.
nickthegreek 13 hours ago [-]
device screen only. i tossed mine and got an ecobee.
gosub100 16 hours ago [-]
I was looking at wireless cameras on eBay and had to stop because I realized I can't just check specs and price. I have to make sure they don't require a cloud connection and or a service plan.
CamperBob2 15 hours ago [-]
I just bought a couple of Reolink RLC-810A cameras, and realized too late (after receiving them) that they require an app just to enable communications and configure the baseline RTSP functionality. Claude found https://github.com/TinKurbatoff/reolink-init# and took care of the issue nicely.
I will probably buy a couple more of the RLC-810As, since I can only assume that newer models will be harder for the owner to actually own.
colechristensen 15 hours ago [-]
plenty of things should have a mandatory sort of twenty year supportability warranty. not necessarily free repairs but an enforceable promise that a thing / "ecosystem" can be used for a reasonably expected lifetime
for a thermostat that's measured in decades
tonymet 16 hours ago [-]
They could easily license the server component to allow you to run it, or unlock the bootloader so you could run third party firmware.
They've had 10+ years to plan ahead for this eventuality, and it's not rocket science.
gerardnico 8 hours ago [-]
I turn mine to dumb again as the smart functions are not smart enough and I spend more money than a basic calendar.
The procedure is simple. 2 fix periods : one in the morning one in the evening and in between if somebody comes home he/she turns the heat manually.
I didn’t see any advantage more inconvenient:
* saw people at home that were not
* started to heat the whole house while I just work in my office.
I have not yet found a practical case except that I can turn it off remotely when I’m on vacation if i forget.
Are any people here getting any advantages?
shiandow 16 hours ago [-]
The emudhra debacle might turn out to be an accidental boon for keeping devices like this running.
To a point anyway.
tonymet 16 hours ago [-]
wouldn't they have to be an emudhra customer (their ssl certs signed by emudhra)?
vrighter 44 minutes ago [-]
only if they couldn't brute force their private keys. one of which i can fully recite from memory right here: 4
matkoniecz 16 hours ago [-]
If I understood correctly, emudhra was able to issue certificate to any website.
Therefore if some device trusts emudhra root certificate...
onedognight 15 hours ago [-]
Google usually does certificate pinning. They know that the CA root store is not to be trusted to sign for their own domains.
matkoniecz 5 hours ago [-]
I assume that devices unable to do certificate revocation will also not do certificate pinning.
onedognight 15 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
tmaly 15 hours ago [-]
I wonder if someone could just reverse engineer the firmware and made your own updates and app?
jayd16 16 hours ago [-]
How much could it possibly cost to keep these working?
bagacrap 14 hours ago [-]
If it depends on some services that are being sunset then the cost of getting them working again approximates the cost of getting them working in the first place.
paxy 14 hours ago [-]
The opportunity cost of people upgrading.
tonymet 16 hours ago [-]
in theory AI can produce the ongoing software support. and the compute bill is trivial compared to even a single AI assistant customer (1/500). something doesn't add up
htrp 15 hours ago [-]
why keep the software up when you can force people to buy another every 5 years
bagacrap 14 hours ago [-]
These things are 15 years old. Are you still using an iPhone 4?
deathanatos 14 hours ago [-]
Should you throw out your entire home every 1–2 years, just because a corporation would like you to?
It's not a phone, so we're not necessarily expecting the lack-of-longevity we'd expect of a phone. (Although even a lot of phones are basically corp "can-you-upgrade-every-2-yr-or-more".)
bagacrap 2 hours ago [-]
15 is an order of magnitude different than 1-2
And I have to replace my HVAC every 20 years so yes I do expect to have to spend money once every couple decades
14 hours ago [-]
grishka 15 hours ago [-]
Another case of a smart home device that unnecessarily needs someone else's servers. They could've made it controllable over the local network and that would've solved, like, 80% of this issue.
I have a z-wave hub I bought about 8 years ago. Admittedly, it's shit, but it does one thing right — you only need the manufacturer's cloud services if you want to control it from outside of your LAN, or if you want integrations with other services.
synergy20 14 hours ago [-]
is there nest alternative somewhere that does not need cloud
GuestFAUniverse 11 hours ago [-]
As if dumb thermostats last really that long.
Ours from Brötli died after around four years.
The replacement has a manufacturing date from 2008 -- what a joke.
The firmware in those things has bugs (like switching some, but not all programs at midnight) that will never get fixed; it works, but not flawless.
Considering this I wouldn't mind a smart solution that lasts /only/ ten years, but gets bug fixes during its lifetime.
quickthrowman 18 minutes ago [-]
My family’s lake cabin has the original 55 year old Honeywell bimetallic strip thermostats in every room and they all work.
throwaway81523 11 hours ago [-]
How much does the upgrade cost to turn the Nest thermostat dumb? It's probably cheaper to buy a dumb thermostat in the first place.
guelo 15 hours ago [-]
The law should require that if a company sells hardware that depends on an internet service, and later discontinues that service, it must open-source the communication protocol and provide a way to connect the hardware to alternative services. This requirement should cover every feature that was functional when the device was sold.
Fortunately Nest owners got lucky this time and there was an escape hatch that allowed projects like No Longer Evil. But there's a long list of devices that have been bricked when their manufacturers shut down a proprietary backend.
deadmutex 14 hours ago [-]
Someone has to write 'The law', and we need to prioritize politicians that do (instead of those that are trying to get views on social media by getting quips/gotcha moments).
plagiarist 16 hours ago [-]
I would never buy an appliance that requires a third-party server. Google cannot remove the value from a Zigbee or Z-Wave thermostat like this.
wolrah 15 hours ago [-]
One of many reasons I prefer home automation hardware that uses ZigBee, Z-Wave, or Thread over using WiFi. If it uses WiFi it almost always wants to connect to or worse requires a cloud, where the dedicated home automation network tech is basically the polar opposite and requires that it work entire directly locally or with a local hub.
Other major reason being that "IoT" devices usually have the shittiest WiFi radios that usually don't even support 5 GHz and almost never support WiFi 6/7 modes where they aren't wasting a ton of airtime on their low-bandwidth communication.
gnabgib 16 hours ago [-]
The Matter standard[0] (+HomeAssistant) starts to fix this, but almost all "smart" appliances have this flaw. From Lutron, GE, Apple, Amazon (ring), Philips(Hue), Samsung, LG, Control4, Ecobee, ADT, Schneier, Chamberlain, Tapo.
Matter only sort of solves it because a lot of Matter devices (most in my personal experience) use WiFi and often intentionally neuter their Matter support to "encourage" you to use their app and/or cloud integration with a major voice assistant.
I have a pair of Govee ceiling lights that have a RGB+CCT primary downward facing light and an addressable RGB accent ring. The ARGB ring only exists in their app. As far as both their Matter support and their official API are concerned these units have a single element which is the downward light, the ARGB ring is not controllable from any third-party systems.
If these were using Zigbee, Z-Wave, or Matter over Thread they wouldn't be able to do this but because they use WiFi they can.
I'm going to be opening one up soonish to see how hard it'll be to just replace the controller with one running WLED (or even reprogram the controller already in it).
gnabgib 14 hours ago [-]
Agree.. although that brand isn't very reliable/a good industry indicator/always pulls that nonsense (I have some of their devices, all paired to an old phone on a vlan without internet.. the features "require wifi" but only because they want their app to overshare).
genldd 16 hours ago [-]
Honestly, given the surveillance capitalism of it all, I take this as a win. The termostst should have been dumb the whole time, not an avenue for harvesting our data.
More dumb electronics please.
guuslangelaar 8 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
paxy 14 hours ago [-]
This thing was released in 2011, and can be replaced in 5 minutes for like $100. This is probably longer than any "smart" device from any manufacturer has ever worked. Not everything needs to be an anti-Google crusade.
But I didn't buy it from Google, I bought it from Nest (pre-Google) - a company that designed and sold high-tech gear that was designed to be permanently installed and (presumably) last a good long time. The acquisition was not a good match, but it is what it is - lesson learned and reputations lost.
(and the design, honestly, was more down Apple's lane than Google's - I thought the former would be more likely to buy them out, not that it guaranteed any different results).
I think that's an overly optimistic take, because we've been through this over and over, and it's only getting worse. We collectively are clearly not getting the message, and we don't own anything as a result.
So I believe that the lesson we should learn here is the importance of public pressure and proper regulations that rein in bad actors.
I have one objection, though. It's a mistake to think that Anthropic is on the consumer's side. That's the same mistake we've made over and over.
I am actually going to self-host and vibe code my own cloud service on Cloudflare.
I have a personal password manager secured like that I vibe coded to replace 1password and so far it is working great.
Keep it off the WAN and you'll be streets ahead of commercial vendors, and your weird, one-off, vibe-coded app means those same commercial vendors are the easier, more widely-deployed targets anyways.
It truly is, and it's a shame since the hardware build quality was solid.
My gen 3 had a bug where when selecting heat mode from off mode after previously being in cooling mode, it'd pulse the AC briefly before ultimately engaging heat, which is absolutely not what you want to do when it's below safe operating temp for the AC compressor.
It was a really basic thing that would have been quickly patched if owned by a thermostat company, but clearly asking too much when owned by an advertising company.
Never again.
ive considered connecting the interconnect wire to my esp32 (that replaced the security system) and get it pushed into home assistant, but without the ability to silence, a push notification that it is going off just didnt seem worth it
> $1200 in hardware, practically worthless.
Those things are really hard to control, and no scheduling, no remote control, no sensors, etc.
Have since replaced it with a Z wave Honeywell thermostat, and I'm much happier.
Not only did I kill the wifi & Internet dependency, but the UX is much closer to a traditional thermostat. So other folks don't seem to have an issue with it as much.
And it actually supports my hardware thermometer for dual fuel cutover.
On the other, it’s a freaking thermostat controller. An appliance. I don’t want to have to replace appliances before they break, and software breaking it is unacceptable.
I’ve been largely holding off on domotics because so much of it reeks of premature obsolescence... Maybe someone over here has good experience with Home Assistant et al?
I primarily use zigbee, which is fully local and very reliable. Home Assistant supports a lot, including older hardware. I have a 2010 Philips LivingColors lamp (predecessor of the Hue) that talks early zigbee and still connects to a 2026 zigbee dongle + Home Assistant install.
I avoid any cloud dependency for the reason you give. Anything local, especially with open protocols and an active community, will probably work for a very long time. Likely the lifetime of the appliance.
I will probably buy a couple more of the RLC-810As, since I can only assume that newer models will be harder for the owner to actually own.
for a thermostat that's measured in decades
They've had 10+ years to plan ahead for this eventuality, and it's not rocket science.
The procedure is simple. 2 fix periods : one in the morning one in the evening and in between if somebody comes home he/she turns the heat manually.
I didn’t see any advantage more inconvenient: * saw people at home that were not * started to heat the whole house while I just work in my office.
I have not yet found a practical case except that I can turn it off remotely when I’m on vacation if i forget.
Are any people here getting any advantages?
To a point anyway.
Therefore if some device trusts emudhra root certificate...
It's not a phone, so we're not necessarily expecting the lack-of-longevity we'd expect of a phone. (Although even a lot of phones are basically corp "can-you-upgrade-every-2-yr-or-more".)
And I have to replace my HVAC every 20 years so yes I do expect to have to spend money once every couple decades
I have a z-wave hub I bought about 8 years ago. Admittedly, it's shit, but it does one thing right — you only need the manufacturer's cloud services if you want to control it from outside of your LAN, or if you want integrations with other services.
Considering this I wouldn't mind a smart solution that lasts /only/ ten years, but gets bug fixes during its lifetime.
Fortunately Nest owners got lucky this time and there was an escape hatch that allowed projects like No Longer Evil. But there's a long list of devices that have been bricked when their manufacturers shut down a proprietary backend.
Other major reason being that "IoT" devices usually have the shittiest WiFi radios that usually don't even support 5 GHz and almost never support WiFi 6/7 modes where they aren't wasting a ton of airtime on their low-bandwidth communication.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_(standard)
I have a pair of Govee ceiling lights that have a RGB+CCT primary downward facing light and an addressable RGB accent ring. The ARGB ring only exists in their app. As far as both their Matter support and their official API are concerned these units have a single element which is the downward light, the ARGB ring is not controllable from any third-party systems.
If these were using Zigbee, Z-Wave, or Matter over Thread they wouldn't be able to do this but because they use WiFi they can.
I'm going to be opening one up soonish to see how hard it'll be to just replace the controller with one running WLED (or even reprogram the controller already in it).
More dumb electronics please.